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By S Anand
RBI economist and Dalit writer Narendra Jadhav's memoir Outcaste (Aamcha Baap aan Amhi) has been picked up for publishing in the United States by Simon and Schuster, the world's second largest publisher for a record amount and is fast becoming essential reading for sociology studies in American universities. In an interview, the author talks about the sudden spurt in the publication of dalit literature
Why this sudden surge of interest in publishing dalit literature? Is it for some belated political correctness?
There is widespread interest in dalit writing now, all over the world. The upsurge is not because it is politically correct but because people want to know more about the underprivileged sections, about the lives of those whom they knew so little. I was amazed at the range of questions about the caste system that were raised during my public interactions in different parts of France . I think it would be fair to say that I received more questions than anybody else among the distinguished group.
Aren't nondalits (in India ) happier to engage with the literature of pain and oppression than with the social realities of caste and dalit oppression? Does dalit literature make them more sensitive to dalit issues, and to dalits?
I sincerely believe that dalit literature does make nondalits more sensitive towards dalit issues. The mainstream, until the emergence of dalit literature, simply had no idea about the kind of life their own brethren were living outside the bounds of their village. With the universalisation of education, dalits are speaking out and the others are willing to listen. I do not think there is any substitution between (the) reading of dalit autobiography and casteism in day-to-day life. I do believe, however, that as far as dalit literature in Maharashtra is concerned, after a wide acceptance for 10-15 years, since the mid-'70s, there was a growing aversion among nondalits. After a few path-breaking works, dalit literature was beginning to get repetitive. The details were different, but the underlying message was more of the same -- blaming all nondalits for their ills and often taking recourse to cursing. While both the acts of action and reaction were understandable in their own way, unfortunately Marathi dalit literature was beginning to stagnate. I think my Marathi book broke that impasse and narrated a positive story which, while highlighting atrocities committed by others, focused more on the possibility of somebody refusing to be defined by circumstances and achieving their aspirations by fighting within the system. I believe that it was this positive message that touched a large number of people. This probably explains why it is an all-time bestseller.
What is your assessment of nondalit writing on dalits?
Even before the dalit literature movement started in Maharashtra , there were a number of nondalits writing about dalits. In Marathi, S M Mate and Venkatesh Madgulkar set this literary trend...
My question is, can empathetic writing by nondalits match or be the same as writings by dalits who have experienced untouchability and dalithood in various ways?
Empathy is the right word, but in Marathi they say 'Aaicha prem ani daeecha prem' , that is, the difference between mother's love and a wet-nurse's love. There is a distinct, qualitative difference between the love of these two. In fact, Mate, who was a brahman, since he wrote so much about dalits was criticised by nondalits and brahmans and came to be called 'Mahar Mate'. Empathy is okay, but there is a substantive difference between dalits writing about themselves and others doing it. When Baburao Bagul or Daya Pawar began writing, it really shook the middle class, upper-middle class nondalit world, because they had no idea what kind of life these people were leading outside the boundaries of the villages. Most people found this shocking because it was beyond their sense of imagination -- their pain, their agony was something which nobody had understood; so when it came out in first-person accounts, of these people telling their own stories, it shook middle class perceptions. But there was empathy in their (nondalit) writings and I don't want to take a position that they be ignored completely. Yet, I would say there's a difference...
And I guess when dalits started writing, the nondalits must have realised that there were limits to imagining and writing about lives and situations they had no experience of.
Exactly. With the universalisation of education, and because of reservation, of course, dalits started writing about their own lives... There's an interesting story that I had read by a person of the bhil (adivasi) community. Earlier, he had a piece of paper only to hold a bhajiya (a deep-fried snack) inside, but now he could read what was written on that piece of paper, and he says that education was like a third eye to him. I think this is symbolic of the much larger humanity. Many dalits got this third eye, of education.
From Outcaste it is evident that you and your family have pulled yourselves out of the morass of untouchability. But most dalits in India continue to suffer. In rural India , there's in fact a form of apartheid. Don't you think this situation needs to be internationalised? And what is the role of literature here?
I don't think I would use the word apartheid here. There were a lot of people who took this issue to South Africa , to the Durban conference. No, I don't subscribe to this view. There is discrimination, there's no question about it, but I would not call it apartheid. Basically, the issue is these people have not come up (in life)...for their livelihood they are still dependent on the higher castes. To that extent, the higher castes have a leverage; and they use that in some places to oppress the dalits; and that continues.
If physical segregation is what it is, then why can't we call it apartheid?
No, it is not physical segregation; even in villages, it's in a very subtle form, far subtler than what it was once upon a time. It includes physical separation, but 'apartheid' takes it to a different plane altogether. That's not my style...Anand, frankly I would rather talk about the silent revolution that is taking place there...in the sense that the awareness is so widespread now among dalits -- that their destiny is in their hands; and they are to be blamed if they don't come up; and they have to struggle and they have to fight. This awareness is unprecedented. This is what I would like to highlight.
Second, they have also recognised now that education is the only means to transform their fate, and they are doing it in a big way. Third, if you see in places like Mumbai and even in smaller places, you talk to any middle class parents -- what do you see? They are always complaining that their child is not studying. But look at the motivation that dalits have -- it's unbelievable. In the slums, in small places. They have to do it. They have to get their act together. Fourth, in Mumbai and in places like Mumbai, do you know that in terms of proportion of income, the largest amount of money is spent by dalits on buying books, and not by the upper castes? This is not an accident. On December 6, when 15 lakh people came to Mumbai to pay homage to Dr Ambedkar, you should (have seen) the turnover of books there. The upper-middle class, they buy books about religion, about karmakand ... These (spending on books, education) are all very positive signs. What I am saying is: though discrimination continues, these are the things that hold the key to the future, which I think is really positive.
So you are optimistic about the future?
I am very optimistic. I do not want to go to the extent of saying that this is apartheid. How long are we going to keep complaining that others are cornering us, yaar . How long?
You seem to suggest that one has to struggle and succeed like Damu (Jadhav's father in Outcaste ) does?
Exactly. Sure, there are and would be enough problems. Nobody is undermining or underestimating those problems. I lost my brother last year. While I was in Dubai (Jadhav was there attending the IMF meet), one of the things I could achieve -- I avoided all the parties and the fanfare -- (was) producing a lengthy piece on my brother. It's a handwritten 72-page piece. This morning I was thinking that (on) December 2, this year, Amcha Baap will complete 10 years. I have already written an essay on 10 years of Amcha Baap . Two months ago there was a massive gathering in New York of all the Marathi-speaking people there. It's a once in two years kind of event...this time it was in New York , and there were three chief guests from Mumbai. One was Vijay Tendulkar, second was Prakash Amte, Baba Amte's son, and the third was myself. And I spoke on both economic issues as well as Amcha Baap and dalit issues. This was a wonderful experience because there were 5,000 families, and one can guess 99% of them were upper caste. And I was happy to be invited to this huge gathering and I went on hammer and tongs (about) dalit issues. There's a Marathi literary magazine which produced a special (issue) on this event, and they have used my article on 10 years of Amcha Baap . Now, I am thinking of coming out with a special edition of Amcha Baap in Marathi, in December, updating the whole thing. The book covered only up to 1992. And this morning I was thinking I must do another book. Not a sequel. I want to cover my brother, me and my brother...my wife has not contributed in the first book. So there would be continuity; there would be some overlap, but there can be a new book.
But you are going to continue this memoirs-type writing or...
This comes to me naturally .
Or are you going to write some fiction, a novel...
The facts that I have are stranger than fiction. Therefore, these facts I have are far more exciting than fiction, and I want to share them. And I don't think there's something called pure literary writing. You always borrow from your own experience, reality...right? This time for my work I am deliberately giving a Sanskrit title. The title would be Aham, Aavaam, Vayam .
What does that mean?
Aham is 'myself', aavaam is 'two of us'. You see, in Sanskrit, there's pratham-vachan, anek-vachan . Things which are done by two together are called aavaam . So Aham, Aavaam...Vayam means 'us'. So 'Me, Two of Us and Us' would be a literal translation. My journey from Marathi to English was very interesting because I had to translate it...a lot of things were getting added, and the structure is totally different in English. Now, I want to go back to the Marathi text, drawing from the English version. I want to start with the Eklavya story, then talk about Damu, then Damu and Sonu's overnight journey. Then I will have Me and My Father, Me and My Mother, then I will have Me and My Brother -- he was another powerhouse; and I will write about Vasu my wife. If my father was the coach, my brother was captain. He played a very important role. I will write extensively about my wife, my children and me. Because I want to talk about how the mindset has changed over a period of time. This is a positive story and I want to take it further. I hope to be able to put this together in the next two or three months.
(This interview is excerpted from Touchable Tales: Publishing and Reading Dalit Literature , edited by S Anand , published by Navayana. To order this and other books from Navayana, which focuses on identity politics and caste, write to: 28, Veerabhadrasamy Koil Street , Lawspet, Pondicherry 605008. Email:
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(InfoChange News and Features, January 2004) |
